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Kisa
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby Kisa » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:07 am

Arumaeruma wrote:
Robiland wrote:No business would ever realistically disclose this information. Probably the reason single chunk marbled chances aren't available anymore is because some customer made a real big stink and BD had to take a loss on replacing a chance that separated at that marble. I've seen it happen on simple splits so on something more complicated/blocky like that, I can understand how it could easily happen. Especially with a lesser trained pourer. *edit, which is why they HAVE to charge extra. Because on top of being a special order, they have to get their highly trained pourers to do the job. It's far from normal and nobody should expect something like that without paying extra. It sucks but that's life. We don't exist in heaven.

I think that until you are literally a silicone pourer yourself, it's hard to make fair comments on how or why a model is justified or not in being removed. I've never ever experienced a business that does the things that BD is being called "gross" for not doing. I know we're all really attached to these toys and how special they are, but yeah it's not like top end silicone is a human right. It's a business.


I totally agree with you for the most part, I agree that people shouldn't say how hard or easy something is until they do it, but I think my problem is the clear lack of communication. I've bought from companies that offer different things and for the most part, say "HEY were getting rid of this!" But again if they announced that they'd have a backlog

I also think people just get frusterated seeing things repeatedly in adoptions that they refuse to do. I'm not talking about polka dots or anything fancy just like certain marbles etc. plus sometimes they say yes sometimes they say no. For example, I ordered an echo and got a suction cup on it even though I was told it may fail. They were clear to me and I obliged. It worked great! I sent them a ticket saying how happy I was with the order. Then a few weeks later someone tried doing the same and they flat out refused which I thought was odd. Maybe they had tons of issues with mine I don't know, but I said flat out that I'd take any attempt even a failed one so *shrugs*



I agree with the first poster in this tree.

I would like to go a step further and say that I enjoy seeing really complex toys in adoptions. It makes them all the more special and unique to the person who managed to snag it. I mean if enough people complain about how there are style of toys in the adoptions that can't be replicated, then they may very well stop dropping the special toys in adoption all together and then no one can their hands on the special toy. Is that really what anyone wants?

I do agree with a tad more communication though. Maybe when they pull a model, they make a ton of pours for that model and drop them in a "going extinct sell." That way people who wanted the model have a chance to get it, and they're not overwhelmed by a high amount of panicked orders that could break their molds... forcing them to make more molds of a phased out toy, which is hardly what you want to happen with that model.

Pulling pics of colorations they will no longer attempt just seems like good sense to me to. I don't think they need to give an explanation, but pulling the pics off of the product page will remove confusion and will take some heat off of CS. As I bet CS gets asked all the time about those colors.

I do think the level of transparency most people are calling for is going well far and beyond what most companies would do.

marshmarshmarsh wrote:
Rainbow Dasher wrote:
Idra wrote:LOL. So I looked and yep, there's still pictures of the light and dark naturals on Chance's page, and nope, no word about the colors being yanked anywhere. Not the forums, not the main site, not their twitter, not their special "news" twitter, not their blog. NOTHING.

Idk why I'm even surprised anymore. This is supremely shitty. Especially after yanking so many things this year without warning, and the Werewolf Muzzle just recently, it's like they really feel the need to show us just how committed they are to being this way


I agree. I'm certainly not surprised. Eh, who cares anymore, anyway? We can be upset all we like; BD is going to do what they want to do, in the end of it all. I'm waiting on them to pull Elden, without saying anything, which is the last toy I want.

i admit i'm surprised duke is still around, considering it looks like a legacy toy, much more so than portside, moko and luka, about on par with the awkwardness of ridgeback's scales with the odd square balls. but i know it's named after one of the ceos, like elden. so maybe they'll keep elden around a bit longer, because it's named after a former employee who died.


I actually feel like Duke would be a popular model. He's simple, you look at him and he looks very human like. People don't have to wonder to much of he'll work for them since he's so human-like. So he'd be a pretty easy first toy for someone dipping their toes into fantasy dicks.

I am surprised at Ellen to. I would think he'd at least be reformatted now. He looks like the old legacy Nova that looked like crap and flopped all the time.
Last edited by Kisa on Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby Robiland » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:09 am

Arumaeruma wrote:I totally agree with you for the most part, I agree that people shouldn't say how hard or easy something is until they do it, but I think my problem is the clear lack of communication. I've bought from companies that offer different things and for the most part, say "HEY were getting rid of this!" But again if they announced that they'd have a backlog

I also think people just get frusterated seeing things repeatedly in adoptions that they refuse to do. I'm not talking about polka dots or anything fancy just like certain marbles etc. plus sometimes they say yes sometimes they say no. For example, I ordered an echo and got a suction cup on it even though I was told it may fail. They were clear to me and I obliged. It worked great! I sent them a ticket saying how happy I was with the order. Then a few weeks later someone tried doing the same and they flat out refused which I thought was odd. Maybe they had tons of issues with mine I don't know, but I said flat out that I'd take any attempt even a failed one so *shrugs*


The reason they don't announce it in advance is because I'm sure they love the models too and don't want to give up until it's confirmed to be a real unavoidable issue. Would you want them to cut off toys that might not need to be cut off just so you'd get a heads up in advance? I don't think so. If a toy is going to be cut there would be good reason for it. Just look at every single legacy model or the pours that are cancelled and wrack your brain hard over it. You'll see the reasons if you consider it deeply enough.

The adoption special rogue pour business thing, that's just because there is no pressure to make a toy that isn't being ordered. If it fails it ends up being a frankenpour or something like that. I've seen so many mediocre looking rogues that would have likely been rejected if they were a custom order. There are enough failed customs in adoptions as it is, and it's pretty clear which ones are failed customs and which ones are rogues a lot of the time.

That's why the majority of my toys will be rogue adoptions. I don't like to wait anyway, even if they are fast at pouring. I don't want to have to send a toy back to BD if I don't like it. There are some I will have to custom but with the increased demand of toys, it's simply not feasible to do what has been done in the past at this point. But they do it anyway, if you pay extra. If I were BD I'd just cut the problems out of production completely and say that it's not worth the risk. So it's a glass half full/half empty thing.
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby Tempest » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:57 am

Flint looks really good in black.

That is all. Carry on.
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby Jasmine » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:27 am

Um, Chance's naturals were pulled the same time as everyone else's... a few months ago >___>
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby Idra » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:12 pm

I think the issue with what people perceive as fair vs unfair has a lot to do with what brands/businesses you're comparing them to, and how you think about the purchase of a BD item. Because BD has cultivated a personal, highly customizable product, and a close relationship with their customers (which they may be trying to distance themselves from, but is still there because that's how they started), it's difficult for me to compare them to a big box store or something like that. You're right, would I be upset if Costco pulled Costco-brand shampoo without warning, or changed the formula, or refused if I asked them to add green dye to the shampoo so that each shampoo would refresh the green in my hair? Of course not. That would be ridiculous to expect. But BD has cultivated and set themselves up from the beginning as a different kind of business, with the forums and the labs and the custom options and the "making your fantasies real". The only real comparison I feel is fair to make is with other fantasy toy stores, most of which are small and/or indie and also have the same close relationship with their consumers.

The "norms" for me in the fantasy toy community, therefore, are: older models being pulled with warning, sales where the toys in question "come back from extinction", and SOME kind of communication about why they're being pulled. FB, AKN, DA... most of the fantasy toy shops I can think of do this. The ones that offer customs (like EE) now do much more than what BD is willing to attempt for customs, too. Is it maybe unfair to expect BD to do the same when they're so much bigger and production volume is so much higher? Maybe. But the fact remains that all of these businesses DO do the things we're asking for from BD, and they're all in the same field, so when these things aren't done, it leaves a bad taste in some people's mouths, myself included.

Plus transparency and consistency isn't hard. Even if the answer is gonna be "no", have it be no all the time and come up with at least a semi-plausible reason you can tell your customers when they ask why.
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby kt~ » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:40 pm

Idra wrote:
The "norms" for me in the fantasy toy community, therefore, are: older models being pulled with warning, sales where the toys in question "come back from extinction", and SOME kind of communication about why they're being pulled. FB, AKN, DA... most of the fantasy toy shops I can think of do this. The ones that offer customs (like EE) now do much more than what BD is willing to attempt for customs, too. Is it maybe unfair to expect BD to do the same when they're so much bigger and production volume is so much higher? Maybe. But the fact remains that all of these businesses DO do the things we're asking for from BD, and they're all in the same field, so when these things aren't done, it leaves a bad taste in some people's mouths, myself included.


^^ Yeah this is the key and this is why people get upset.

Other companies definitely do discontinuation sales or at least announcements.

FB did an extinction sale just this past summer for a few models before they were pulled.

AKN, iirc, made an announcement when he retired the old Cupid and a few other models, and dropped a few of those toys in his store for anyone who wanted one at the last minute.

And TnP made an announcement before discontinuing the Jellyfish.

Btw.....BD has done extinction sales before.
http://bad-dragon.com/sales/endisnigh2014
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby Robiland » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:56 pm

BD is many times larger than those companies though. Ah well.

That's why I got my BD collection pretty established so fast, so that I could support the companies that need my support for at least a few rounds of toy buying before moving back to BD. It's just not possible to offer the same level of service on a large scale unless you choose to be very very focused on maintaining that level of service. Then you lose the opportunity to expand in other regards. BD chose to expand in the way they did, so while we lose out on certain offerings that were offered in the past, we're not in the past anymore. But it's great because you can either go to other manufacturers for that level of service, and BD still has the widest range/most established business so they have their important place in my heart. edit: Forgot to add why it's really great: Because BD still offers most of what they took away within reason. Just put in a ticket and be reasonable/say you're 100% fine with total failure.

Um. The other thing is that each manufacturer offers a unique feeling toy experience in my opinion. It's kind of a special industry in that sense. But at the same time what can you do? Change is inevitable and I'm sure they did not foresee this business model expanding into such a huge success. You got to consider the level of open-mindedness it takes to even consider one of these toys. We're all pretty cool in that sense for being like that, for whatever reasons we are like that individually.

Idunno though. BD is not the end all be all, but they do a lot of stuff so well that I will have a lot of BD toys by the time I am done. You gain a piece and you lose one too when you decide to grow. While it is a special industry, it is important to never lose touch with the fact that it is strictly business when a company gets this big. It has to be, they are probably so busy all the time. Then they have to have their own lives on top of that, and their own toy lives too. It's not as simple as it seems.

BD is so diversified/established that it's going to be really hard for me to stay away from buying more of their toys for too long, but I think it's definitely good to try at least a model or two of other companies that interest you like EE/FB/DA/PH that are able to offer the high level of service you were able to expect from BD when they were smaller. It's not the type of industry where one company can rule it all. There are too many different types of pleasure, and too many different tastes regarding visuals. Even though BD has such a diverse range, their toys all share a pretty common feel to them aside from a few standout models/community contributions. It's because they are all made the same way lol, everyone works differently/uses slightly different equipment.
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby AriesCat » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:03 pm

Tempest wrote:Flint looks really good in black.

That is all. Carry on.


So does Pretzal. I was not expecting it to look so nice, but it looks very elegant and the way the light hits the detailing makes it really pop. I was expecting boring-but-not-bad and instead I was pleasantly surprised.
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby marshmarshmarsh » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:09 pm

kt~ wrote:
Idra wrote:
The "norms" for me in the fantasy toy community, therefore, are: older models being pulled with warning, sales where the toys in question "come back from extinction", and SOME kind of communication about why they're being pulled. FB, AKN, DA... most of the fantasy toy shops I can think of do this. The ones that offer customs (like EE) now do much more than what BD is willing to attempt for customs, too. Is it maybe unfair to expect BD to do the same when they're so much bigger and production volume is so much higher? Maybe. But the fact remains that all of these businesses DO do the things we're asking for from BD, and they're all in the same field, so when these things aren't done, it leaves a bad taste in some people's mouths, myself included.


^^ Yeah this is the key and this is why people get upset.

Other companies definitely do discontinuation sales or at least announcements.

FB did an extinction sale just this past summer for a few models before they were pulled.

AKN, iirc, made an announcement when he retired the old Cupid and a few other models, and dropped a few of those toys in his store for anyone who wanted one at the last minute.

And TnP made an announcement before discontinuing the Jellyfish.

Btw.....BD has done extinction sales before.
http://bad-dragon.com/sales/endisnigh2014

keep in mind that after they announced that extinction sale, things got so incredibly venomous on the forums that the company threatened to shut the forums down and banned a fuckton of people. basically we've taught them to keep things close to their chest. why bother informing people who are just going to whine about it?

akn and fb and da do not have nearly as much traffic as bd does. akn and da focus mostly on stock drops (because that is a tried and true method of one-man-businesses), and fb has a wonky wait system. i think my bruce was one of the last out of the shop before they retired the model (i literally recieved it the day after they retired the model), and even my bruce had a chunk missing from the tip. i wonder if the mold they'd made mine in was on it's way to breaking even then. they brought him back for shark week too!

fb does not have nearly the number of customization options as bd. you cannot add suction cups. there are no cumtubes. no split-firmnesses (this kills the man). you have about 20 different options and once an option is gone, it's gone. you cannot ticket fb to beg them for a legacy sabertooth the way you can ticket for a legacy chance from bd, or ticket for one of the limited edition eggs once they've sold out (rip moonlit night and that neat amber one).

ee doesn't have anything like the variety of bd, their texture is heavier, and i remember someone saying how many orders they get a day vs bd's daily orders being a magnitude or two lower. they can focus on what they do awesomely because they have a manageable workload and thus time to focus on individuals. really tricked out customs are about as much as a legacy bd toy. if you like what they have, great! order from them! get a really nice custom! they're really nice to communicate with and do quality stuff.

also, 'making fantasies real' is like, a slogan. a marketing slogan. do you really think buying a bottle of loreal makes a person's worth improve? or 'every kiss begins with k' ends in actual makeout-age? i do not think disney contains actual magic, just some talented, stressed people trying to make a living entertaining people. or that uncle sam needs me to join the army (which i couldn't anyway, lolllll trans-exclusive policies).

keep in mind before blue ritual went into temporary retirement, she did not do an extra inventory drop. sometimes you just can't get what you want. i look at my collection and i am so, so grateful for what i've collected. i've been lucky. it could be really, really nasty colors. but i like the look of almost everything and they make me happy. when a hobby no longer makes me happy, that's when it's about time to do something else. :)
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby Vitani » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:03 pm

Incorrect.
The forums were not threatened to be shut down because of the extinction sale, though that may have been a part of it. There was a whole lot of other stuff going on at the time that was making people upset, including price hikes, and severely BAD customer service, and censorship of that. (which BD has improved greatly on IMO).

And even so, if people were that upset over an extinction sale, who in their right minds would think that pulling models down with no warning, and no chance to get one if you really wanted it would make people any less upset??? That doesn't make sense to any rational person.
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby Idra » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:24 pm

marshmarshmarsh wrote:why bother informing people who are just going to whine about it?

In what world would you imagine that BD is going to have LESS people being upset about pulling models with no warning or communication vs having extinction sales?

Because I have to tell you, I buy a decent amount from indie businesses and other businesses with similar close ties to their consumers, and when they've had to pull things, they've given a reason, and usually a last chance. And people have understood, even if they weren't happy.

But ultimately, here's the thing: if they're pulling models so they can bring new stuff out or because it's a poor seller, have an announcement and a "last chance" period. If they're pulling models because the molds have gone to shit, SAY SO, don't offer a last chance, and DON'T bring them back for 150% (if the molds are that shitty that the model had to be pulled, you shouldn't be pouring in them, especially for MORE money). Regardless, always announce; it doesn't hurt you at all and it gives the impression of transparency.

I guess I just don't understand why people are so up in arms about these suggestions. Even if you don't think BD should do these things, why act like it's too much to possibly expect when it... Clearly... Isn't...?
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby marshmarshmarsh » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:47 pm

Vitani wrote:Incorrect.
The forums were not threatened to be shut down because of the extinction sale, though that may have been a part of it. There was a whole lot of other stuff going on at the time that was making people upset, including price hikes, and severely BAD customer service, and censorship of that. (which BD has improved greatly on IMO).

And even so, if people were that upset over an extinction sale, who in their right minds would think that pulling models down with no warning, and no chance to get one if you really wanted it would make people any less upset??? That doesn't make sense to any rational person.

ok, my bad, i was under the impression that the forums reaction was mostly because of the extinctions back then. (i'm very glad customer service has improved, even if it's inconsistent about things like suction cups on echo)

but... you can still get most of the models i think? did anyone ask cs if they could order a werewolf muzzle like a legacy and cs said no?
Idra wrote:Because I have to tell you, I buy a decent amount from indie businesses and other businesses with similar close ties to their consumers, and when they've had to pull things, they've given a reason, and usually a last chance. And people have understood, even if they weren't happy.

Whipspider didn't. Jollies/Chavez Dezignz didn't. Necronomicox didn't. Tantus doesn't. it's really not a universal model of business.
But ultimately, here's the thing: if they're pulling models so they can bring new stuff out or because it's a poor seller, have an announcement and a "last chance" period. If they're pulling models because the molds have gone to shit, SAY SO, don't offer a last chance, and DON'T bring them back for 150% (if the molds are that shitty that the model had to be pulled, you shouldn't be pouring in them, especially for MORE money). Regardless, always announce; it doesn't hurt you at all and it gives the impression of transparency.

I guess I just don't understand why people are so up in arms about these suggestions. Even if you don't think BD should do these things, why act like it's too much to possibly expect when it... Clearly... Isn't...?

i'm really not up in arms at all. mostly i'm just tired. and one of those suggestions imo is terrible. i would be REALLY sad if i couldn't have gotten my custom legacy toys. i'd rather the 150% hike rather than 'nope retired, you can't have at all even with flaws'.

you'd honestly really rather not have anything after the fact?
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby Idra » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:56 pm

marshmarshmarsh wrote:you'd honestly really rather not have anything after the fact?

Yep, I really would. If they're retired, retire them. My other thing I spend too much money on is makeup, and in the makeup world, a ton of stuff is limited edition and/or artificially scarce. I have my problems with that business model, believe me, but I'm nevertheless glad that there's no "hey, if I pay you a shitload, can you mix me up a batch?" And yeah, even when I've been on the wrong end of that and unable to buy something. I'd rather that things that are gone stay gone and aren't just available at a heavy premium.
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby marshmarshmarsh » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:04 pm

Idra wrote:
marshmarshmarsh wrote:you'd honestly really rather not have anything after the fact?

Yep, I really would. If they're retired, retire them. My other thing I spend too much money on is makeup, and in the makeup world, a ton of stuff is limited edition and/or artificially scarce. I have my problems with that business model, believe me, but I'm nevertheless glad that there's no "hey, if I pay you a shitload, can you mix me up a batch?" And yeah, even when I've been on the wrong end of that and unable to buy something. I'd rather that things that are gone stay gone and aren't just available at a heavy premium.

yikes, ok. well, i'm glad that they have them still available if you know where to ask and can save up enough for it. so, firmly disagreeing on that point.
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby Tempest » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:25 pm

AriesCat wrote:
Tempest wrote:Flint looks really good in black.

That is all. Carry on.


So does Pretzal. I was not expecting it to look so nice, but it looks very elegant and the way the light hits the detailing makes it really pop. I was expecting boring-but-not-bad and instead I was pleasantly surprised.

That's awesome! I think toys with a lot of bumps and ridges look good in dark colors. The high contrast created by light shining on the surface makes the details really pop. I expected Flint to look good, but even expecting that I was impressed.
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby someguy28 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:39 pm

AriesCat wrote:
Tempest wrote:Flint looks really good in black.

That is all. Carry on.


So does Pretzal. I was not expecting it to look so nice, but it looks very elegant and the way the light hits the detailing makes it really pop. I was expecting boring-but-not-bad and instead I was pleasantly surprised.

Glad to hear it, because those are the exact two toys that I ordered on Black Friday. :widesmile:
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby Tempest » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:45 pm

someguy28 wrote:
AriesCat wrote:
Tempest wrote:Flint looks really good in black.

That is all. Carry on.


So does Pretzal. I was not expecting it to look so nice, but it looks very elegant and the way the light hits the detailing makes it really pop. I was expecting boring-but-not-bad and instead I was pleasantly surprised.

Glad to hear it, because those are the exact two toys that I ordered on Black Friday. :widesmile:

Yeah, I think you'll be pleased. :liplick:

What sizes did you get?
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby Syntyth » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:48 pm

marshmarshmarsh wrote:keep in mind before blue ritual went into temporary retirement, she did not do an extra inventory drop.

I have a cold and don't feel like wading into the rest of this, but the quote above isn't entirely true. When BR decided to retire, she made a public announcement and used up the last of her silicone pouring a couple extra toys. To give everyone a fair chance at them, she auctioned one off and sold the other at base price to the winner of a lottery.
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby blushingkitten » Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:15 pm

marshmarshmarsh wrote:
Idra wrote:
marshmarshmarsh wrote:you'd honestly really rather not have anything after the fact?

Yep, I really would. If they're retired, retire them. My other thing I spend too much money on is makeup, and in the makeup world, a ton of stuff is limited edition and/or artificially scarce. I have my problems with that business model, believe me, but I'm nevertheless glad that there's no "hey, if I pay you a shitload, can you mix me up a batch?" And yeah, even when I've been on the wrong end of that and unable to buy something. I'd rather that things that are gone stay gone and aren't just available at a heavy premium.

yikes, ok. well, i'm glad that they have them still available if you know where to ask and can save up enough for it. so, firmly disagreeing on that point.


I agree with you, marshmarshmarsh. I'd rather be able to still buy stuff, if I have the cash, than have missed out completely forever.

If something is limited, that's fine, and I understand why it wouldn't return or be able to be bought. But if something is just retired, however, for whatever reason, than I think it's better to be able to buy it from the source vs having to scrounge around for secondhand sales or to just accept that I'll never have it. Maybe it's spoiled of me, but I'd rather get what I want whenever I want from the direct source, even if that means paying a price increase.
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Kisa
Posts: 875
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:24 am
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Re: Bad Dragon Banter

Postby Kisa » Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:51 pm

Fruityrumpusasshole wrote:
Idra wrote:
marshmarshmarsh wrote:you'd honestly really rather not have anything after the fact?

Yep, I really would. If they're retired, retire them. My other thing I spend too much money on is makeup, and in the makeup world, a ton of stuff is limited edition and/or artificially scarce. I have my problems with that business model, believe me, but I'm nevertheless glad that there's no "hey, if I pay you a shitload, can you mix me up a batch?" And yeah, even when I've been on the wrong end of that and unable to buy something. I'd rather that things that are gone stay gone and aren't just available at a heavy premium.


I agree with this.
The molds are still there. The molds are still taking up the same amount of space. but now they are used even less.
Either retire them, or make new molds to fix the flaws.

I honestly can't wrap my head around the reason that this is done, other than getting more money.


I'm with all of this. Having a model be "retired" but still purchasable at a premium makes no since to me. Retire the model or revamp it. Having a super secret old model that I can buy for extra $$$, adds too much stress of choice on me as a consumer. I'd rather that option be taken away all together.
Toys I own:
Lil Vibe (8) Crackers
Mini (5) Echo
Small (5) Ika
Medium (5) Echo
Medium (5) Roland

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