Binaries

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Lurrk
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Binaries

Postby Lurrk » Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:08 am

G'day guys,

I used to be an anti-SJW atheist marxist who never really understood this whole "non-binary" thing... nor did I bother to educate myself about it. I just didn't care enough about it. Other people's opinions on gender don't affect me...

Then I found out about extremist feminists indoctrinating children in early childhood day care centres. I do care about this, so I looked deeper into it and have "red-pilled" myself against the cult of 3rd wave feminism.

While red pilling myself, the topic of "non binaries" came up. A lot. And I decided I wanted to know more... From what I have learned so far, I see no reason to validate the unscientific opinions of a bunch of batshit crazy femicult youtubers.
However, in fairness to the non-binary-believers, I don't think it is right for me to draw a conclusion based on the opinions of a handful if youtube nutters. Instead, I would like to expose myself to the grass roots views of the LGBetc community at large.

I'm really not looking for any huge fights or radicalist drama, and I don't expect anyone to particularly like me. I only want to talk with some people who think gender is more than a simple matter of male or female, and educate myself on the science that they pin their beliefs on. Respectfully.

I know Bad Dragon is not really the appropriate forum for this, but I honestly didn't know where else to find non-binaries. Lol. So is anyone here able to point me to a more appropriate forum or website where I can find and intellectually engage with people about this topic, without any of the shit-flinging misogynist/misandrist/[insert]-phobic drama?


Thanks guys :)
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Re: Binaries

Postby Ixick » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:24 am

Shouldn't this be in some off-topic section....?

Like, why would you post in the wrong section of a furry dildo forum about your 'red-pilled' desire to tell people that they're wrong about themselves? :eyeroll: You're not gonna get people really happy to talk to you when you're opening with "hey I specifically talked to far-right people who told me that there's a feminist cult indoctrinating The Children with non-binary genders so I think it's all a buncha bull, who wants to talk? :)"

Maybe delete this and post in the off-topic section asking people why they identify as non-binary instead of opening with how much you think they're lying?
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Re: Binaries

Postby ImagineToothless » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:41 am

Ixick wrote:Shouldn't this be in some off-topic section....?

Like, why would you post in the wrong section of a furry dildo forum about your 'red-pilled' desire to tell people that they're wrong about themselves? :eyeroll: You're not gonna get people really happy to talk to you when you're opening with "hey I specifically talked to far-right people who told me that there's a feminist cult indoctrinating The Children with non-binary genders so I think it's all a buncha bull, who wants to talk? :)"

Maybe delete this and post in the off-topic section asking people why they identify as non-binary instead of opening with how much you think they're lying?

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Re: Binaries

Postby Raya » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:01 am

ImagineToothless wrote:
Ixick wrote:Shouldn't this be in some off-topic section....?

Like, why would you post in the wrong section of a furry dildo forum about your 'red-pilled' desire to tell people that they're wrong about themselves? :eyeroll: You're not gonna get people really happy to talk to you when you're opening with "hey I specifically talked to far-right people who told me that there's a feminist cult indoctrinating The Children with non-binary genders so I think it's all a buncha bull, who wants to talk? :)"

Maybe delete this and post in the off-topic section asking people why they identify as non-binary instead of opening with how much you think they're lying?

:misc13:

^

Tho REALLY wouldnt call it a "furry" dildo fourm seeing how alot of people here arent Furries or arent here just because they are Furries.
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Re: Binaries

Postby TheOtherDude » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:14 am

There's certainly people around here as well that consider themselves (and biologically are!) classic male or female, and who also don't care about all this "I don't fit either of those!" (or call it outright bullshit).

I'm always going with a live and let live attitude - as long as they don't annoy me and aren't trying to push something that significantly changes my own way of living, they can be whatever they want to be for all I care. If they get pushy, I fight them. That's however the same policy I hold for anyone I happen to meet, no matter who they are.

As per nature's laws they will always be the minority, but neither will they die out. It's simply a side effect of evolution. And I think it's not good or "natural" to favor or encourage them, but neither is it to keep them down or even try to exterminate them. I am a whim of nature/evolution myself as well, albeit in a different sector, so I'm not completely on the standpoint of an outsider.

I do find it questionable at what low ages the "indoctrination", as called by some (and some pamphlets I've glanced over definitely read just like that), happens to children. I don't think early sexualization is healthy for their development. But when kids get into the age of discovering their body, or a few years past that point, they should definitely be shown that there's also people that consider themselves not fitting the classic sexes and whatever else there might be. It shouldn't be explicitly encouraged (and neither demonized), but the info has to be shared. The unknown begets fear, fear begets aggression and aversion. Take away the unknown and you are a good step towards everyone else picking up a "live and let live" attitude for this topic as well.
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Re: Binaries

Postby Willow » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:41 am

Well, I'm a male to female transsexual.
But your vernacular sounded a little too intellectual for me to engage in a meaningful and thoughtful conversation with you.

So with that, I leave you with... poop.
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Re: Binaries

Postby Amaranthe » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:28 pm

Is...is this a troll post?

It's REALLY not hard to search for scientific research articles on the topic. Just google it. Google Scholar is your friend. If you don't know how to tell a good research paper from a junk one (which I think might be likely given how you worded your post), google that first.

As for the drama, it sounds like you're trying to incite it by not being able to pose your question respectfully. Instead of "red-pill crazy femenist cult blahblah, but hey I wanna chat about it" Would it have really been that difficult to say something like, "Hello! I'm interested in chatting about non-bianary gender ideas, since I don't know much about it and I'm not sure what to think. The information I've gotten doesn't seem reliable. I wasn't sure where else online to ask, so I figured here would be okay. Thanks!"

Like seriously dude.

Also you didn't know where else to ask about this topic? You found a sex toy forum before you found subreddits, or other forums?

What even.
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Re: Binaries

Postby Love is all you need » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:31 pm

Poop I s a perfect comment, I second poop.
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Re: Binaries

Postby ImagineToothless » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:41 pm

Amaranthe wrote:Is...is this a troll post?

It's REALLY not hard to search for scientific research articles on the topic. Just google it. Google Scholar is your friend. If you don't know how to tell a good research paper from a junk one (which I think might be likely given how you worded your post), google that first.

As for the drama, it sounds like you're trying to incite it by not being able to pose your question respectfully. Instead of "red-pill crazy femenist cult blahblah, but hey I wanna chat about it" Would it have really been that difficult to say something like, "Hello! I'm interested in chatting about non-bianary gender ideas, since I don't know much about it and I'm not sure what to think. The information I've gotten doesn't seem reliable. I wasn't sure where else online to ask, so I figured here would be okay. Thanks!"

Like seriously dude.

Also you didn't know where else to ask about this topic? You found a sex toy forum before you found subreddits, or other forums?

What even.

Also this.
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Re: Binaries

Postby katze » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:45 pm

Gender is a spectrum, it's as simple as that.

Also your red pill bullshit isn't really welcome on a forum full of queer people who use fantasy dildos.
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Re: Binaries

Postby vixenvega » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:46 pm

A TERPER asking the thoughts of non-alphas?
Yeah, okay :eyeroll:
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Re: Binaries

Postby hidoragon » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:54 pm

If people want to view themselves as a non-binary, who am I to say they can't?

I don't need scientific evidence supporting and kind of fact that non-binaries exist, I simply choose to respect how other people want to view themselves. Typically accommodating non-binarys takes very minimal effort-- and just like everyone else, they can be some pretty cool people.

If you're looking for a more scientific basis, I have to ask you what exactly do you mean by that? That people are "born" away from gender binaries? Or the fact that it exists at all?

For the second point, just the fact transgenders choose their own image is evidence enough. As for the first point, check out twin studies that focus on gender identity by reputable scholars.

(Also coming into a forum harshly criticiszing and attacking a group of people is a poor first impression.)
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Re: Binaries

Postby AriesCat » Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:33 pm

Probably a troll, but... I'd consider myself agender. I didn't learn about it until recently, no roving gangs of 'feminazis' beating me over the head with non-binary sticks as a kid, just wondering why I didn't feel particularly attached to looking feminine or masculine.

The topic came up about if you'd have a mastectomy to prevent breast cancer and I'm like "If it's free? Heck yeah, cancer's awful." and all my female friends were horrified at the thought and felt like they'd become less of a woman. A friend who did need a mastectomy for breast cancer had really bad dysphoria afterwards and endured very painful reconstruction because of it.

I've done costume makeup/binding/clothing to appear very masculine, looked in the mirror, and gone "Yep, that's me." And I've done the same to appear very feminine and gone "Yep, that's me." and other people I've talked to found it very odd to look in the mirror and see 'someone else'. So for me at least that's all that's all it is, if I could magically swap back and forth I'd be very happy, but I'm also totally cool with the body I have. It wasn't until I started talking with people and realized most people do have a sense of gender and a preference that I realized my feelings on it weren't universal. Saying you have a cock and you're a man and that's important to you sounds weird, but I believe you! And I kind of figure if I can 100% believe people when they say they have a gender and it's important then other people should be able to believe me when I say I spent most of my life being unaware that anyone felt that way because I sure didn't.

And my profile says female because eeh, why not? It's how most people see me, so it's all good!
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Re: Binaries

Postby Lurrk » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:50 pm

Thanks to everyone who has responded. As per my original post, I believe in fairness and I don't expect to be liked by anyone. So, I will respond to each and every one of you :)

Ixick wrote:
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ImagineToothless wrote:
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Raya wrote:
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I'm sorry if I posted this in the wrong forum. I thought this was a general forum for general chat. I'm happy for mods to move it to a more appropriate location though.
With regards to my background, I thought it only fair that you know my political agendas right away. If I didn't do this, then I would have run the risk of being called an apache attack helicoptor spy, which I most definitely am not.
Also, I gave this information to make it clear that I am not open to discussion about feminism. I am only here to find out why some people believe we should redefine gender. I want to find facts.

N.B. I'm a marxist and socialist at heart. But I'm also a discerning and logical thinker. When it came to feminism, they were unable to provide any proof of their assertions. Meanwhile the alt-right, whom I don't usually listen to (Fox News is a fucking joke. Lol) were able to present verified facts and statistics that actually disproved the feminist's assertions.
In my mind, there is zero doubt that 3rd wave feminism is a cult that is more dangerous than scientology.
I'm still anti-SJW (live and let live)
I'm still a socialist (believe it or not, I care about people)
I WANT to belive in non-binary genders, but I NEED evidence first. I'm asking you guys to teach me.

TheOtherDude wrote:
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You sound like a smart guy, and I would love to talk to you further. But is Bad Dragon an appropriate place to have this discussion? Perhaps we can continue talking on another forum? (Unless BD is okay with extended political chats like this?)
In short I agree with you, live and let live, which is why I never really gave a shit about other people's gender beliefs until now. Now it is just a matter of curiosity for me. I'm not here to hate, I'm here to learn :)

Willow wrote:
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Love is all you need wrote:
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In your world view, what is the difference between trans-sexual and trans-gender?
If I was to make a logical assumption, a trans-gender would be a person who has a crossed gender, while a trans-sexual would be someone who has a crossed sexuality. But this is confusing, because a crossed sexuality would be called homosexual or bisexual, right? So is a trans-sexual someone who is sexually attracted to all non-male non-female genders?

Amaranthe wrote:
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ImagineToothless wrote:
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Not at all. I am being sincere in my desire to learn more about the rationale behind your beliefs.
I've tried watching youtubers try to explain it, but they're always torn to shreds by simple logic.
I've tried searching google scholar as you suggested, and all I got was a flood of social-sciences based on small sample size surveys, anecdotal evidence, and uncited claims.
I am genuinely finding it difficult to find any verified facts or hard evidences to support the notion of non-binary genders.

I mentioned the red pilling to give you guys some background on who I am. It's always easier to reach your target audience when you know who they are and what motivates them. And in this case, I've put a big target on my chest and have asked everyone here to educate me on the facts that support your gender belief system.

And as to why I came here instead of reddit is easy:
* I have been a Bad Dragon forum member since 16/11/2016, and I know I can find non-binary believers here.
* I don't have a reddit account, and finding non-binary believers there would have been more effort than going to a known source like Bad Dragon.

katze wrote:
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The red-pilling is a side note to give you guys some context on where I'm coming from.

It's all well and good for you to say gender is a spectrum, but just saying it doesn't make it true. I could say I have a 30cm cock, but that doesn't make it true.
I'm assuming you're a smart fellow who doesn't believe in things without proof or evidence or science or... or something to give you a reason to believe.
So, on this assumption, I'm asking you to share with me why you have chosen to think of gender as a spectrum?

-----
To anyone who I have not yet replied to: I have not forgotten you. I will be composing replies to you guys a little later :)
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Re: Binaries

Postby ImagineToothless » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:59 pm

* I don't have a reddit account, and finding non-binary believers there would have been more effort than going to a known source like Bad Dragon.

Okay but making a Reddit account is literally easier than breathing. You don't even need to enter an email address if you don't want to. In fact making a Reddit account is easier than even logging in here on the BD Forums.

I'm still convinced you're just here to get a rise out of people but... okay.
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Re: Binaries

Postby None » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:34 pm

The problem is that you're asking regular people here. I'm sure some of us here are biologists or psychiatrists or scientists who are generally knowledgable on the subject, but most of us here are just everyday people, a lot of us still students. All you're going to get are either opinions or reports of personal experience, neither of which are of much scientific relevance just by themselves.

Either you've come here to troll by "Ripping people to shreds with your infallible logic" when they offer their own story, but can't articulate it in a completely coherent and scientifically accurate way, or you're just going to fail in the goal you purported to have set yourself.

I suggest asking biology and psychology professors at universities in your area. If you really want to find something out and not just came here to shit on people, that is of course.

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Re: Binaries

Postby Willow » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:38 pm

Lurrk wrote:In your world view, what is the difference between trans-sexual and trans-gender?
If I was to make a logical assumption, a trans-gender would be a person who has a crossed gender, while a trans-sexual would be someone who has a crossed sexuality. But this is confusing, because a crossed sexuality would be called homosexual or bisexual, right? So is a trans-sexual someone who is sexually attracted to all non-male non-female genders?


Ah well, I might as well take an attempt at this. It is quite a complex question when it should not be.
First and foremost, I would to make it clear that these are my thoughts and might not and do not always align with others. I tried to approach it in a way that seemed the most logical through introspection, research and social interactions.
Transgender is an umbrella term. Trans meaning across. And gender... well gender. This covers crossdressers, transvestites, transsexuals (we will get to in a minute), drag queens/kings, and other non-comforming gender roles that are not covered by other groups, other groups like Q (queer or questioning covers the more non-specific).
Personally I don't agree with a few of the inclusions on that list, but I am not here to change definitions.

Transsexual has absolutely nothing to with sexuality (although some have used the word transsexuality which isn't even a word). Once again, trans meaning across and sexual pertaining to their sex. It is one who believe that their body does not match their mind. Or to be more cryptic, but precise their sex does not match gender (I'll explain in a bit). Colloquially known as, a man trapped in a woman's body or woman trapped in a man's body... it goes both ways.
One most understand that, within the topic, gender is a psychological construct. Your mind, basically.
Sex is a physical manifestation... your body.
How this differs from a crossdresser (CD) is that CD has no desire to become a woman, but dresses as the opposite sex which is almost predominately part-time. Transsexuals do have the desire to lives as the opposite sex and some do take the step necessary for that.

I will not go into the aforementioned steps, the differences between CD and a transvestite or what makes a transsexual a transsexual, those are stories for another time. They are also more specific on my thoughts with cane be more radically different from others.

In closing: poop.
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Re: Binaries

Postby Idra » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:56 pm

Asking people to scientifically prove what they feel is true about themselves based on their lived experience and internal sense of self is never going to work, though. Nobody becomes trans or genderqueer or whatever because science has told them it's a thing. They feel it because that's how they feel and what their lived experience has been. There were trans people before anyone did any of those brain chemistry experiments -- the experiments happened because trans people existed and were living their truth; nobody went around testing everyone and then said "Great, looks like you're trans!"

Science has always been catching up because people want there to be a scientific explanation instead of being able to accept that what people feel is true about themselves IS true, regardless of whether it's scientifically accurate or you agree with it. Literally anything. If someone feels they're a cat in a human's body then that's still true for them, from their perspective/point of view, regardless of whether you like it or accept it or whether science backs it up. If you don't want to be around someone like that, don't be.

Like, I could talk endlessly about social constructs of gender and the scientific basis of gender and which one/whether any of it is valid, but it doesn't actually matter. Just trust people when they say something about themselves and don't hang out with them if you don't like them.
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Re: Binaries

Postby HungryStray » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:27 pm

Okay so, I have to jump in here and say that a lot of the replies here have been astonishingly rude and it's no wonder that the red-pilled people don't want to bother asking folks on the opposite side about this kinda stuff. For anyone here who considers themselves non binary or transgender, I completely understand why your defenses might be raised or your dander up, but it's NO excuse to be rude to anyone asking for legitimate answers when they weren't being accusatory toward anyone and even gave a disclaimer saying they wanted to know what it was about from a firsthand source.

I personally believe in the gender binary system, but if you consider yourself outside that, and are happy with you, it's good enough for me. I believe that there is such a thing as gender dysphoria, and that it is what spurs on thoughts and feelings of non binary, or transgender/transsexual, and is a product of the times where gender roles have been blurred to the degree where they are no longer concrete, and creates a sense of confusion when so many choices are presented.

I don't believe that gender is a social construct, and believe that men and women are better suited toward certain roles, but I also understand that there are always exceptions to the rule. My mate wants to be a stay at home dad when we get around to having kids, leaving me to be the breadwinner. This is fine with me, assuming we can afford it, and the reason this might work is because I need mental challenges through constant problem solving on a daily basis to keep my brain happy, this I get from my job, at the same time however (children aside), I feel like I would be very happy if I were to be placed in my traditional gender role, because I get great pleasure pleasing the man in my life by cleaning, organizing, scheduling and serving him a good meal when he comes home, it pleases my inner female.

I believe that gender expression can be done on a spectrum, and it's about the only spectrum I'm willing to swallow besides the one on sexuality (straight, gay, bi-leaning same sex, bi-leaning opposite sex). If anyone were to look at me on a work day, I look like a tomboy (big ole flannel, baggy pants, knitted beanie), but then when I go out, I could be caught in pastels and skin tight pants with high heels on. Sometimes I like to feel "chill" or tomboyish, other times I want to feel "pretty" or more feminine, but I'm always a girl, no matter how I dress.

In short, from the outside looking in, to me it looks like it is, and could be so simple, it's just a matter of the brain fighting its own natural flow, by which I mean, just do you, no matter what junk you were born with, and you'll fit in no problem without the labels. If you're a woman and you enjoy weightlifting and fixing cars, fantastic! If you're a man and you like throw pillows and bath and body works, you do you! Boo on anyone that thinks your interests and mannerisms are weird, SOMEONE out there somewhere is gonna love you for you. You aren't your gender, it's just a tiny fraction of what makes you, you, and you shouldn't let it be what marks you as an individual. Just fuckin love yourself kids.
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Re: Binaries

Postby Raya » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:59 am

HungryStray wrote:Okay so, I have to jump in here and say that a lot of the replies here have been astonishingly rude and it's no wonder that the red-pilled people don't want to bother asking folks on the opposite side about this kinda stuff. For anyone here who considers themselves non binary or transgender, I completely understand why your defenses might be raised or your dander up, but it's NO excuse to be rude to anyone asking for legitimate answers when they weren't being accusatory toward anyone and even gave a disclaimer saying they wanted to know what it was about from a firsthand source.


I 1,000,000% agree. Im not non binary or transgender but I am Therian (someone who feeling/beleaves they are actually an animal, were actually ment to be born an animal. Or were an animal in a past life.) so I can get how people would be on edge when someone whos not trys coming in.
HOWEVER Im someone who also believes the best way to learn about something you dont know is to ask. Google and teachers can only be so helpful, if you really want a inside look at something its best to ask those who actually apart of it. People always get mad when someone talks about or says something and something and they are completely wrong because the person actually knows nothing about it because they never bothered to actually look it up or they were giving the wrong information but this is WHY ALOT of people dont bother asking to begin with.
A guy doesnt know then he doesnt know. Just like when someone doesnt know something about another country, just because they dont know doesnt make them ignorant, it can simply mean they simply just dont know.
Not everyone is going to know everything about something just because you do or think they should, and its WAY more ignorant to think they should.
Unlike the guy who came here ACTUALLY THOUGHT ALL Furries were sexual deviants and ALL Furry cons WERE actually giant sex orgies and asked how to "get in on it", this guy ACTUALLY wants to get facts about the thing he doesnt really understand from the actual people.
I really dont think it matters where he asked, be it here or on reddit, people should just be happy theres someone whos open minded enough to actually want to get a insiders pov instead of just going off what they hear or read from someone whos not a transgender.
Like them I ALSO like to go on scientific fact/evidence or proven evidence about ALMOST everything, even when science cant explain it and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with that.

But I also know that not everything that cant be explained means its right or wong, true or false, does or doesnt exist, can or can not happen, or is or is not possible.


For this kind of subject its one of those things that cant be fully scientifically explained because its a feeling. Just like how in the 1900s people believed being gay was a mental illness or a disease that people contracted from someone and 70s or 80s they tried provide it but they couldnt. They proved it wasnt a real mental illness or a disease that or something someone can "contract" from a another person but they still couldnt explain it.

For one reason or another alot of people just dont feel like they are a specific gender. Or some reason a guy feels more feminine and not at all masculine so he identifies himself as a She, or a girl feels more masculine and not at all feminine so she identifies herself as a He.
Like all feelings, science just cant explain the feelings someone feeling.

Why does every living thing feel sadness?
Why exactly does every living thing get the feeling of joy? What is the full purpose of it?
Why do people have irrational fears of things like dolls or small holes?

Its just a thing people feel. Theres completely no other way of explaining it.
I know "It is because it is" isnt a satisfying or full answer most times but most times its the only answer. Some things you just have to except as is.

Remember, we know more about space then we know how the brain works.

Really when it all comes down to it it really just comes down to if you yourself care what other people feel about themselves.
If a male beleaves hes actually a female then whatever, if they happy then good for them. If a girl wants to be a boy then you do you. Just as long as they arent smashing it in my face and/or they still know no matter how they look or feel they still know they still they have a XX or XY chromosome
(ie the time I took my dad to the hospital and there was a MtW 'man turned women' who was furious because the doctors told them just because they looked and felt like a woman STILL didnt mean they now have the ability to get pregnant and birth a baby so they wont/couldnt inseminate them or implement an embryo in them. Like.... the fuck dude? Come on..... :unamused: :eyeroll: The cops had to arrest them to remove them from the hospital...) then I cant care less.

And even if you yourself dont believe in it it doesnt mean you have to disregard FULLY what other people think. For example, some guy tried to tell me and force on me that 'Christian God' (saying christian god since all religions have their own interpretation of God. I believe in GODS aka more then one) is the one who controls EVERYTHING I do, me getting up every day and me having a job, and I told him hes full of absolute complete shit :eyeroll: but I still wouldnt tell him or others like him NOT to believe.
If it makes you happy and ur not forcing it upon other people then good for you. At least someone is happy.












Also please excuse if there are mistakes, repeat, confusing or such in my post, I finally got good Insurance again and I just started retaking my old medicine I haven't taken in years tonight on top of the pain pills I had to take and its got my brain all fucked up. X.X
Last edited by Raya on Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:16 am, edited 5 times in total.
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